Existence

May 29 2006
I don't believe existence to be entirely dependent upon physical perception.  If that were true, then when I was first conceived, then it was not until I was able to perceive my own existence that I in fact existed.  If God knew Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb, then obviously Jeremiah existed before he had the capacity to perceive his own existence.  And if the bible is not a source for you, then a fetus will suffice.  All of us were at one point the initial conception of an egg and sperm cell.  Meaning our existence began there.  Had we been aborted, we would not be here, we would not exist, because our existence would have been halted. 
So obviously, some type of existence had to have been there. 

But in response to something chris asked, if someone was born without senses.  Once again, just because they couldn't perceive their existence does not mean, in my opinion, that they exist.  Why?  Well, if there is a God, ( which there is, and His purpose of making us with relationship with HIm, is an apologetics spiel I don't feel like going into right now ) and He is all powerful, totally supra natural, then He is capable of anything.  Meaning He could, if He desired, create someone to be born without a perception of their existence, and then heal them so that they could perceive their existence. 
The question is, if they existed before they were healed.  I would say, yes, because we have a spiritual perception.
You can say that spiritual perception is somehow related to a physical feeling.  In feeling God's presence, I relate it to a physical feeling.  I say no, it is a feeling in and of itself, one beyond the natural, one not capable of being described in the natural, because it is SUPER natural.
You can't naturally describe an emotional healing that from that point on is proven through how I behave differently.  I really don't want to go there, but if you don't believe that something beyond your natural perception can happen when you experience God's presence, then I worry if you believe you can ever experiece His presence.
Go to a camp service and mean it if you disagree.
But anyway, every person is God's child, His creation, and so capable of experiencing that. We are spiritual as well as physical beings.
NOw a bit complicated....
For that person to exist, they have to have a spirit. People are not strictly physical.  I don't want to go here either, but the simple mechanical workings of your body components are not what give you life.  God is the life behind it ( the whole.. two cells through sex made YOU )
So that person does have a spirit, as any one else does.  But their physical being isn't aware of anything.  So God heals the physical, so then they can perceive the natural, but the spirit has always been there. 
You say "no" for whatever reason.
So I ask this: If that person died, wouldn't they go to heaven or hell?
No, they weren't really a human being...
Right.....
So there's my argument.

Rebecca Jensen

May 30 2006
Nice post... I do want to point out that the argument concerning Jeremiah won't help you because it says "I knew you before I fromed you in your mother's womb" That doesnt' help you prove existance before perception..... but aside from that it was a good post :-) PS... when are you going to be back in town haven't seen you in forever.

Mai White

May 31 2006
I'm not saying abstinence is impossible, I'm saying it's extremely hard in today's society. We also have to keep in mind that not every one is a Christian, and not every Christian believes in abstinence. Rather than only teaching about saving sex for marriage, educators need to understand first of all, how hard that is. Second of all, no matter what they teach or what they want to happen, it's each individual's personal choice. If they're going to have sex before marriage, they need to be taught how to do it safely (no matter how ineffective condoms can be, they're still better than no condom at all) and they need to be taught to have standards, and, marriage or not, to still save it for a meaningful relationship.