God is malicious?
October 21 2006
So Graham posted this on his facebook:
Sovereignty
by Graham Wells (notes) 12:22am Thursday, Sep 21
I think that when it comes to God, we like to forget that sovereignty means absolute authority and control.
I think that is an uncomfortable thought. Not only does that mean that
God DOES let bad things happen (they COULDNT happen, in fact, without
His allowing them to), it really does make a lot of other issues a lot
weirder, especially the question of the doctrine of election, better
known as predestination.
In a discussion on predestination, a question occurred to me. If
election isnt true, if God doesnt already know precisely who will or
wont be saved (which, Him knowing that means that it MUST happen, which
could be seen as choosing), if that isnt in His hands, then God is NOT
all-powerful and NOT all-knowing. We know that God is both of those
things, right? I'm not saying that I'm absolutely right, but the logic
is painfully and irritatingly obvious.
So what about free will? Simple answer is that I dont know. According
to Psalms, every step of our life was written out by God before our
birth. That means He knows every sin, every joy, every mistake, every
single thing that we will do before we even think a coherent thought.
Once He knows something, that is the way it is. There are no "what if"
games with what God knows, no room for Him "knowing where each of our
choices could lead." To be all-knowing, He MUST know every answer
already. By Him knowing it, it MUST happen that way. That means that
though we have free will, we have no choice at all and we dont even
realize it.
As frustrating and ego bruising as that is, I find that I dont really
care that much. More than He cares for us, Yhwh desires His own glory.
If it is in His plan that He is glorified by my one path, then so be it.
Darned peculiar thought process. I'm reasonably certain I intended to
be in bed almost an hour ago. I dunno. I'm open to other thoughts or
people punching holes in mine. :-)
I responded with:
Karissa Krapf wrote
at 11:26pm on October 20th, 2006
The
problem is the Bible says different things about god...so no one really
knows what this supposed god is like...which is why i think hes most
likely made up...and if a god does exist we dont know shit about him-
obviously. Also, if he knows everything and is all powerful, that means
he made us sin...so he damned some of us to hell on purpose because he
put the tree there and knew what we would do if he did...messed up
stuff. but i take great comfort in knowing it probably isnt real.
Graham responded:
From:
Graham Wells
To:
Karissa Krapf
Subject:
Well . . . you're right on something.
Message:
"What if God,
choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great
patience the objects of wrath - prepared for destruction?" Romans 9:22
So
yeah, I think that does state that some people are created that are
destined for destruction in the long run. It's not pretty, but a lot of
things arent. *shrug*
Is this what every Christian believes? I have definite problems with this and I would hope that others do as well. God cannot possibly be what Graham states and be loving/all good. It would basically go like this: God says, "Okay, I'm going to make some people. I am going to make a place called hell (or it already existed) and make some of the people burn in it. I will torture them forever. I will give them the illusion of choice between me and hell, but ultimately a lot of them will burn for all eternity because I say so." Now seriously people, that is far from good. And that is not love. That is like me saying that I will have children and give one all of my love, care, attention, and help them their whole life, and the others I will throw out on the street or keep in a closet with little food and water and beat occasionally. Tell me how that is NOT the same thing. And on top of that, God supposedly expects his Christians to be good, loving, and "turn the other cheek"=peaceful. Hypocrisy? Basically, the concept of god being concerned about his authority and his glory and thus electing some people to be with him cannot be reconciled with god being love and goodness. Tell me how it can be. It can't. And I can't believe anyone would want to worship a God like that.
Opinions please.
Sovereignty
by Graham Wells (notes) 12:22am Thursday, Sep 21
I think that when it comes to God, we like to forget that sovereignty means absolute authority and control.
I think that is an uncomfortable thought. Not only does that mean that
God DOES let bad things happen (they COULDNT happen, in fact, without
His allowing them to), it really does make a lot of other issues a lot
weirder, especially the question of the doctrine of election, better
known as predestination.
In a discussion on predestination, a question occurred to me. If
election isnt true, if God doesnt already know precisely who will or
wont be saved (which, Him knowing that means that it MUST happen, which
could be seen as choosing), if that isnt in His hands, then God is NOT
all-powerful and NOT all-knowing. We know that God is both of those
things, right? I'm not saying that I'm absolutely right, but the logic
is painfully and irritatingly obvious.
So what about free will? Simple answer is that I dont know. According
to Psalms, every step of our life was written out by God before our
birth. That means He knows every sin, every joy, every mistake, every
single thing that we will do before we even think a coherent thought.
Once He knows something, that is the way it is. There are no "what if"
games with what God knows, no room for Him "knowing where each of our
choices could lead." To be all-knowing, He MUST know every answer
already. By Him knowing it, it MUST happen that way. That means that
though we have free will, we have no choice at all and we dont even
realize it.
As frustrating and ego bruising as that is, I find that I dont really
care that much. More than He cares for us, Yhwh desires His own glory.
If it is in His plan that He is glorified by my one path, then so be it.
Darned peculiar thought process. I'm reasonably certain I intended to
be in bed almost an hour ago. I dunno. I'm open to other thoughts or
people punching holes in mine. :-)
I responded with:
Karissa Krapf wrote
at 11:26pm on October 20th, 2006
The
problem is the Bible says different things about god...so no one really
knows what this supposed god is like...which is why i think hes most
likely made up...and if a god does exist we dont know shit about him-
obviously. Also, if he knows everything and is all powerful, that means
he made us sin...so he damned some of us to hell on purpose because he
put the tree there and knew what we would do if he did...messed up
stuff. but i take great comfort in knowing it probably isnt real.
Graham responded:
From:
Graham Wells
To:
Karissa Krapf
Subject:
Well . . . you're right on something.
Message:
"What if God,
choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great
patience the objects of wrath - prepared for destruction?" Romans 9:22
So
yeah, I think that does state that some people are created that are
destined for destruction in the long run. It's not pretty, but a lot of
things arent. *shrug*
Is this what every Christian believes? I have definite problems with this and I would hope that others do as well. God cannot possibly be what Graham states and be loving/all good. It would basically go like this: God says, "Okay, I'm going to make some people. I am going to make a place called hell (or it already existed) and make some of the people burn in it. I will torture them forever. I will give them the illusion of choice between me and hell, but ultimately a lot of them will burn for all eternity because I say so." Now seriously people, that is far from good. And that is not love. That is like me saying that I will have children and give one all of my love, care, attention, and help them their whole life, and the others I will throw out on the street or keep in a closet with little food and water and beat occasionally. Tell me how that is NOT the same thing. And on top of that, God supposedly expects his Christians to be good, loving, and "turn the other cheek"=peaceful. Hypocrisy? Basically, the concept of god being concerned about his authority and his glory and thus electing some people to be with him cannot be reconciled with god being love and goodness. Tell me how it can be. It can't. And I can't believe anyone would want to worship a God like that.
Opinions please.
Sam-Graham Jinn (Graham Wells)
October 21 2006
Copied from a facebook message so nobody thinks I'm being cranky. :-) -------------------------------------------------------
"Neh, i dont mind. Obviously, not everyone will agree with me since not everyone agrees with Predestination/Election anyway. I'm not even sure that I actually have a response, to be honest. But I'll get back to you when I can. I have to shower so I can take a baby kitty that nobody will keep to the pound :-("
Hunter Barry
October 21 2006
I do think it's pretty low to copy a private message and make it public. I also think it's pretty low to take private comments out of context. Let private conversations be private. One final note, just because there are different points of view about something does not mean it's made up.
yourcandytears
October 22 2006
It wasn't completely private. Half of it is on facebook for anyone to see. I never took anything out of context. I reposted the conversation in its entirety. And the fact that there are different points of view isn't even what I said. It isn't that there are different points of view, its that the entire thing doesn't make sense. God is either all knowing and all powerful or he isn't. Either situation is no good. And one final note, maybe you should actually comment on the discussion topic, or are you just at a loss for words because I have a good point?
Rachael Moore
October 22 2006
in reality, there is no way to prove whether or not there is free will or if we are all predestined. we can run around all day with verses or ideas supporting either one. we would have to look back at the original text... and even then one may read it the way he or she wants to. our finite minds cannot even begin to wrap our minds around a infinite God. and judging from what i am reading above, i am assuing you are taking the "predestined" veiw point. and so your arguement is from that. saying God controls all of that. but if you looked at it from another perspective, one where God has foreknowledge, but allows his people free choice then it changes. then you see a loving God allowing His people to choose life and to choose him. and this does not mean God is not in control and all powerful, because He indeed is. but in reality, no matter what side you are on, God is love. and i believe that very strongly. but no matter what any one says, at the end of the day, you still believe there is no god, and we still believe there is. and it is fine to believe two different things, but i just don't think all of this is getting us anywhere. and that is not to say we cannot talk about it. because it is good to hear differing opinions. now, i don't really remember where i was going with this. but yeah... that all!
yourcandytears
October 22 2006
The reason I post this stuff is not to get people to become Atheists. I just want people to think hard about what they believe. I think that religion often causes pain and suffering when it is imposed on other people that have different belief systems in the way of politics, government, and war. It is good that you think God is love, but there are also people that believe that God tells them to kill people and that is okay. I am not fine with that. I also think religion can cause discrimination which is damaging to the community. Those are the reasons I post these things. Plus I love the interesting discussion, and I want people to understand where I am coming from.
Sam-Graham Jinn (Graham Wells)
October 22 2006
Well, in the first place, God expects us to turn the other cheak because when someone punches my or otherwise sins against me, first and foremost it is a sin against God, not me. It IS about Him, not us, and that is the point that the "turn the other cheek" brings up. I'm not the big deal, and it isn't about me. What I have tried to explain time and again to you is that God's love is on the same level as His desire for His own glory to be seen and His sense of Justice. And to a certain degree, I think that Christian culture has it wrong. We emphasize love so much that people like you get wrapped up in that, and use it to beat usk up. But that isnt the ONLY thing that God is about, we just preach it because that is what people want to hear, and I think that we are doing them (and ourselves, and the Gospel, and the Lord) a huge disservice in that. I think that I am going to shock Rachael in a second here, but I do agree with her that once again, this isnt really getting anything done other than raising people's blood pressure, lol. She stated it far better. I'm not gonna claim to know everything, but I'll keep things up as long as they remain civil and I have something to say, haha. In regards to what Mr. Barry said, while I would have said it was okay to post that, I do wish that you had asked ahead of time instead of telling me after you had done it, but that is neither here nor there. Have a good day! :-)
Amy
October 22 2006
Well, I would have to say I don't agree completely and 100% with Graham's views on predestination, but he did make a very good point in that last remark about how Christian culture has distorted God's love. To me, it seems we have made God look like a Santa Claus figure that wants to give everyone what they want because they are "good" people. God is loving, but He is also just and righteous. Now, regarding something you said about hell, I wanted to point out that it was created for Satan and his demons. Satan was an angel of God that decided he wanted the same power as God. And that was not ok, in fact, it was blasphemous. And so that's why Satan and his followers (the fallen angels) were eternally seperated from God. And at the beginning of time when Satan tempted Adam and Eve, that began the long, cosmic, and spirtual battle over human souls. And in my opinion, God giving man free will to choose whether or not to sin was quite loving. He could have created all of us to mindless robots. But as a God of love and passion, He created man in His own image. And it is hard to wrestle with many of the issues concerning Christianity, and I think it is a good thing to hear someone questioning our beliefs because it does give us something to think about. But at the end of the day, after reasoning and thinking, what it all comes down to is faith, and whether or not you have faith and believe what God said.
36_Thoughtless
October 22 2006
God lets things happen to prove His knowledge right. God lets some things happen as they do, and they will always prove Him right. He doesn't make it so: it just happens the way He foretold. Reality proves Him right. If you don't accept that idea, whatever.
Sovereignty is absolute power and control, but that also means God can relinquish that control if He wants. He foretells certain things, but they don't have to happen that way: they just do. As I said, the universe proves Him.
