Yep... God kills babies. Old news. Check out Psalm 137. These verses hardly qualify God as being pro-abortion.

Well if he kills babies, he is pro-abortion since abortion is killing babies, right? Or maybe he just doesn't know or can't make up his mind if you want to take Psalms into consideration. Either way it's either contradictory (uh oh, Bible Innerancy isn't correct?) or he's for killing babies.

Ok, so say that that means God is pro-abortion, it also means he is pro-murder because they are killing people. Under certain circumstances God commanded the Isrealites to kill infants, this does not mean that abortion is ok.

God is about justice...not about killing babies. Abortion is murder...God only allowed people to kill for the sake of justice(means its not murder)

About justice, huh? It is just to kill babies that have never done anything, even babies that have not been born, because their parents rejected God? It's the same thing as abortion. The parents made a bad choice, the child dies. If anything, these passages indicate that God doesn't hold life to be nearly as sacred as people seem to think.

you are so dumb. thats all im going to say.

Hmmm...actually I am quite educated and intelligent. I don't see how what I wrote indicates that I am dumb in any way. Murder of babies is murder of babies. You just don't want to see it that way so you resort to personal attacks.

Amazing Zay has the right argument. To say he is pro-abortion is to also say that he is pro-murder (according to those verses). So, because god told them to go kill THOSE babies and THOSE people then I have the right to kill anyone I want and any baby I want right? So I can murder you and have an abortion.

Exactly my point. The God you worship as so loving, wonderful, and just orders murder. He orders infants to be ripped from their mothers wombs. The God of the Bible is hateful, malicious, and many other things. He commands people to commit many atrocities all in his name. Maybe you think this is fine (I dont see how), but dont you see that the Muslims who flew planes into our buildings also thought God was commanding them to kill? You may think your God is justified when he tells people to kill for him, but so do other religions. So who is right? The answer? No one. Youre all wrong. Religion is treasonous against humanity.

Corinthians says "the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing". Arguing with you about a God that you don't believe in is fruitless and will get nowhere. I do not believe in a malicious god, but a god of love. A God that sent his son to die for us. A God that cares about us and loves us. Yes, sometimes he does things that I don't understand, but he is still a loving god. How many times in the bible was he angry, but the people calmed his heart, or he was moved with compassion and spared people who deserved nothing but death. We ALL deserve death and hell, but God's love and compassion allows us a chance to live. He gives us an escape from all that. He promises us a life of joy: For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. The bible says "he is willing that none should perish." Let's relate this to your child. You would NEVER wish harm on your son, but if he lived a life that you could not approve of (as an extreme, let's say he was a mass murderer) would you not throw him out of your house? God loves everyone and wants everyone to go to heaven, but he can't overlook the sin in our lives until we ask him to forgive us. For those that do not ask forgiveness there is no hope.

Religion is treasonous againts humanity? my dear while your attempt at logical use is quite brave, the flaws and their resulting logical fallacies are gaping. your conclusion is far from supported in ANY branch of logic, nor does its from resemble true logic. Perhaps you should study Aristotle and Socrates a bit more before making such a jump.

Context. The verse about Samaria refers to Israel being overrun by an outside nation that was well known for tearing apart pregnant women and other such nastiness. That is to say, the were doing evil, and were going to fall to a nation that was more evil. The rest of the verses refer to the utter destruction of those who would take God's glory for themselves. Even the children would have some knowledge of the system of those around them. More than anything else, God cares about getting the glory that is His. And as is also said, God's ways are not our ways. His purpose isnt to make us comfortable or make us be okay with everything He chooses to do. If He cared more about our opinion than He did about getting His glory, He would be an idolator. His glory is what he looks for above all, and that isnt always squeaky clean in our eyes. I also understand that Mr. Morgan was correct with his first two statements, that arguing with you about this really is pointless, because nobody on either side is likely to change their mind. Believers have their own convictions that those who dont believe will obviously take issue with, and the other way around. *shrug* My .02.

Context. The verse about Samaria refers to Israel being overrun by an outside nation that was well known for tearing apart pregnant women and other such nastiness. That is to say, the were doing evil, and were going to fall to a nation that was more evil. The rest of the verses refer to the utter destruction of those who would take God's glory for themselves. Even the children would have some knowledge of the system of those around them. More than anything else, God cares about getting the glory that is His. And as is also said, God's ways are not our ways. His purpose isnt to make us comfortable or make us be okay with everything He chooses to do. If He cared more about our opinion than He did about getting His glory, He would be an idolator. His glory is what he looks for above all, and that isnt always squeaky clean in our eyes. I also understand that Mr. Morgan was correct with his first two statements, that arguing with you about this really is pointless, because nobody on either side is likely to change their mind. Believers have their own convictions that those who dont believe will obviously take issue with, and the other way around. *shrug* My .02.

Grr. Sorry for the double post, not sure what happened there.

Hell is different than throwing my son out of the house. It is ETERNAL torture of the worst kind. Throwing my son out of the house would not be like that. At worst, he might die, but that would be the end of it. God's punishment, however, is ETERNAL. I would NEVER punish my child ETERNALLY. No one responded to what I said about your faith being the same as the Islamic faith. You all seem to rationalize that God can kill anyone he wants for any reason if they are evil or if he sees fit. And he does it through other people in these OT verses. This is EXACTLY what happened to the people that flew into the twin towers. They believed their God was telling them to kill us because we were evil. Do you see the harm in this type of thinking? I hope so. And also I did not make any "logical" statements. But it does make sense that if God commands murder, he commands murder. Pretty basic.

On the Hell issue. God cares about His glory more than anything else. A non-Believer gives Him none of His glory and keeps it for themselves. If He allows them to become Heavenbound anyway, He would be saying it was okay not to give Him what He cares about the most. If you dont give Him what He commands us to give Him as His (Just), how can He give you what we all want to some degree or another (Love). Yeah, God loves us. But we aren't the main thing. He is. Simple fact is that we can't answer the Islam question. We werent around for the Old Testament and we dont know exactly what happens in the heads of Islamic extremists. We simply have the Word of God (which to us is Truth and to you is nonsense) to tell us that God did what He did. Since we dont consider their religion Truth, we dont consider what was said to them to be true either. It's not an answer that will satisfy you and will seem foolish, and I know that, but it is what it is. If God truly commanded it, it wouldnt be murder, though. Since He is Law and Justice, if He commanded it, then it is the way it is. *shrug* Notice that Christians killing people in God's name (though people who claim to be Christians commit atrocities like abortion clinc bombings and the like) is quite rare compared to Islamic suicide killings. *shrug* Another handful of change.

Wrong. There were centuries of Christians killing people and wiping out entire civilizations (in South America the population went from somewhere like 8 million to 100,000 in like 10 years after inquisition). And we're pretty much doing it now with America killing Islamists. It's a good thing no god really exists, at least to my knowledge. I am just scared for people who think god is commanding them to murder so they do. That's very dangerous.

I don't normally post in debates like this, but I think there is one key point that hasn't been made yet, and so I'm going to contribute a little. In Christian doctrine, all humans are inherently depraved creatures, while God – to the small limit that we understand Him – is on a vastly higher, holier level. Ultimately, because no person lives without sin, no person deserves to dwell with a sinless God, and God is under absolutely no obligation to accept or save any of His fallen creatures. Even infants have original sin – it’s a concept that isn’t easy, but a reality in Christianity. And while God saves children who die as “innocents,” it’s not because He is obligated to. It is because He chooses to, out of love. The reason people see God as cruel or unjust is they believe He owes something to every human; but God owes us nothing, and if He chose to condemn all of mankind to Hell, it would be His prerogative. I understand non-Christians don’t like this idea, because it seems wholly unjust, but there is a certain point at which a Christian must have faith that God is so much higher than mankind that we cannot even conceive His idea of justice. But in Christianity, the only reason we’re not all damned is the love and mercy of God, who could in all fairness wipe out mankind in a flash but chooses instead to provide a way by which humans can enter into communion with Him, a privilege which no one deserves. When God orders the murder of some people in the Bible, it is not an injustice, but merely an administration of the justice which should be given to all. He could order the death of half the world right now, and it would be just. The fact that He shows mercy to so many – the fact that so many people come to know Him – does not negate the reality that all fall short of his glory and deserve death. Now, all this being said, I understand that as a non-Christian you will not accept these things as true, but this is an answer to how Christians justify the verses you gave and why they do not contradict with a Christian God of mercy.

I know all of that. I was a Christian for most of my life. If you set aside the man-made doctrine, you will have a hard time explaining this. And if God is so loving and merciful, why doesn't he just let everyone into Heaven? That is a silly argument because he saves innocent children because he chooses to, but he won't save me because I can't seem to believe in him because I haven't truly experienced him. That's nice. Do you really want to believe in a God like that? Do you really want to worship a God like that? I don't, even if he is real. I'm serious. We're supposed to love one another and God is supposed to be love. How can love damn ANYONE to hell for ETERNITY- not just a little while- forever because of a tree HE PUT THERE. Furthermore, he designed us to be curious enough to want to eat from the tree. What the hell? It is all his fault so why doesn't he just save us all. I became a non-Christian after truly reading the Bible and seeing that it is full of atrocities like these, contradictions, and is mainly based on early religions. I do appreciate everyone adding their opinions, except for the person that called me dumb- sort of ironic. Thanks.

anytime a conclusions is drawn or inferred to be drawn from a statement of series of statments it is the use of logic.... some correct and most flawed

You know, Dani, the fact that you pick the biggest word you can think of doesn't actually make you sound more intelligent. If anything, the fact that you put so much effort into sounding clever detracts from your comments. Perhaps your words would be worth more if they were arranged to contribute to the discussion and not to your apparent sense of superiority. As most of us can attest, as far as debates go, 'tis better to be clear than to be clever. If you want to contribute, to so. Don't just jump in because you see a chance to make yourself sound intelligent. We'd be more impressed if you contributed something thoughtful. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- As for the debate at hand, none of us would claim to understand God. We could go around and around discussing humanism, logic, scripture, and other sources of truth and "truth". No matter what you believe, you believe it because you choose to. Whether you choose to believe the Bible and then choose to believe that the Bible teaches against abortion, whether you choose to believe in the Bible and then choose to Believe that the Bible portrays a God FOR abortion, or whether you just believe what you want, it all comes down to making a choice. -- -- -- It's funny that we get so wrapped up in debating. Usually, we'll come to the same conclusions if we make the same assumptions. But we don't. We are shaped by quite a bit long before we make any real decisions on what we believe. Most of our opinions are based on belief, and logic just serves as a sort of icing. A lot of people base a lot of VERY different beliefs off the bible, but does that me that some people use logic and some don't? More likely, they just find the verses that support what they already believe. If you worry that you can't find proof of what you belief, don't. No one can absolutely prove anything. If beliefs could be proven, we'd all believe the same thing. It comes down to faith. Where you place that faith, of course, is a choice. We're all trying to make that choice the best we can. Sorry for the length. I'm wordy.

Sorry about that. I posted all that, but forgot to logout Daniel. Daniel was posting about his day and I wasn't paying attention ;) Congrats on most remarked, too, but I think you saw that coming.

i apologize or my excessive glee in my use of vocabualry.... if it offends you that i use large words i'm sure i could work out a cliffnotes version... lol.... sry

First of all, I believe God grants everyone a chance to believe in Him; in other words, at least one time in a person's life, God will reveal Himself in one way or another to a person. If you believe that I'm stupid for saying that, so be it, but I won't take the time to prove it. Second of all, I don't think God condemns anyone to hell without the chance or the understanding of that drawing. Many Christians refer to it as the "age of accountability". Finally, to get on with my point, let's say I'm God. I know everything that has been, is now, and will be, and am all-powerful. If I know for sure that a civilization is doomed to self-destruction no matter how much I try to persuade them in their free will I've given, and know they will go to hell according to the preset rules I have made, is it more loving to destroy those existing in evil and judge those infants based on the age of accountability or more loving to let them live on, causing their posterity to fall into judgment, because I am non-contradictory God and righteous God. See, Karissa, the difference between me and you in this example is that I'm God. I hold all the cards, and, at the end of the day, I decide who lives forever and who doesn't. These people responding to your post don't, and neither do you. All humanity's understanding of the Bible does not substitute for God's actual decision, and can't. So for you to go around and accuse God of being unmerciful and unjust is totally out of place. Whatever you think God did to piss you off doesn't matter. What I believe doesn't matter to your eternity because at the end of the day it's you and God, no one else. If you can't accept that, so be it. I think it's each person's responsibility to do what they believe God wants them to do AND allow others to do the same. If God decides to let someone go, that's His decision. God does love His creation, but God's also the ultimate authority. He loves everyone to give them a chance even though they don't deserve it. Also I don't know if we fully understand the concept of hell and/or the "Second Death". Again, as I said, each one's judgment is between them and God, but if all you're going to do is criticize God for doing what you don't even fully understand and aren't willing to understand, why do you accuse God of not making Himself available to you? He has! He hasn't hidden from you! Then again, it's between you and God and no one else. If you want to know the answer to your questions--on abortion, experiencing God, what the truth is--you should ask Him yourself.

Yes, I do believe in a God like that. Because God is not only Love, He is also Just. I think Christina wins in explaining that, but the simple fact is that people focus on love and totally forget that He is equally (if not more) Just and concerned with His own glory. Love is not greater than Justice in the character of God. They have to work together. Also, In my last comment on Christians vs. Islam, I left out the key word "recently." I dont think anyone pretends that the Crusades were anything more than a God excuse for a political vendetta to increase morale. And in regards to Dani . . . I have reread all of her comments and failed to find the reasoning for the jab at her using the biggest possible word. It all read pretty straightforward to me. ------------------------------------------------------ Anyone else realized yet that this isnt going anywhere?

I agree with Graham, I think this probably won't go anywhere. It comes down to whether you believe that God is sovereign and that His justice is beyond our understanding, or whether you cannot accept that on faith. Whichever way you go, you're not going to be convinced of the opposite just through arguments, but only by your own faith and ideas about God.

"my dear while your attempt at logical use is quite brave, the flaws and their resulting logical fallacies are gaping. your conclusion is far from supported in ANY branch of logic, nor does its from resemble true logic. Perhaps you should study Aristotle and Socrates a bit more before making such a jump." - Dani. Alas, then, and we shall talk about logical fallacies. One of the most basic of these is ad hominem, which describes a statement that attacts the character or person instead of the argument. If she had said "I think your conclusion is inappropriate", that would have been fine. I think the crafting was unfortunate. I've been around college students and forums (and children) too long to fail to recognize careful wordsmithing so as to put others down to make yourself look better.

Thanks for all of your posts. I will now tell you the reason that I wrote this post as some are trying to speculate and are getting it wrong. As you all know I was a Christian for a very long time and I was serious about it. After really researching it, I found it not to be true. That's really not the point. The point is that I think it is dangerous for people to believe in a god that tells them to kill people, go to war, vote against giving people rights, and deciding how other people should live. The reason this is dangerous is because god "speaking" to someone is so objective since he doesn't do it audibly or write on the walls. So a person like Andrea Yates might think god wants her to drown her children but in fact she has a mental disorder. And that is why I brought up the Muslim extremists. They truly thought that God was commanding them to do what they did to the twin towers. We don't think they were right though. And if we killed in the name of god, there are many who wouldn't think we are right. And there are thousands of other religions that all think god tells them what to do and would kill for him. I think it just causes more death, destruction, and pain than anything. I think it is sad that people would kill anyone because their beliefs are different. However, this is what God of the Bible did time and time again. And as for me talking to God and asking him myself as someone mentioned, I have done that. I got no answer when I was Christian and the evidence against him just kept piling up. Again, thanks to everyone for your posts. I hope if nothing else this has helped everyone think critically about what the Bible says about violence and how other religions are just the same but we would quickly say they are wrong if they were to do what our god did in the Bible.

In response to being etrernally judged and sent to hell, that is love in and of itself. For people who have rejected God and even further for those who hate God, spending eternity in heaven praising God would be hell. So, instead of allowing all people in heaven and having people there that have not chosen to follow Him who would hate being there, He gives people what they want and what they have chosen-to be seperate from Him.

Sadly, there are a lot of people out there, such as Muslim extremists, who do believe that God has told them to murder those who are "against him". And yes, this is a very dangerous thought. And yes, there have been "Christians" in the past who believed this way, and according to your opinion there still is (since you seem to be essentially equating all Christian Republicans with Muslim extremists, which is another debate for another day). But... if someone is a tried and true Christian in our modern day world, they will balance what they believe God is telling them with the Bible. And when I say the Bible, I mean the whole thing in context, not obscure O.T. verses taken out of context. I personally, as a Christian, have never believed that God was telling me to do anything against His Word. In the Bible, it says the way to test a false prophet is to match up what He says against what the Bible says. This is why Christians do not agree with Muslim, Mormon, etc. faiths. What it all comes down to, as many people have said before, is the individual heart and faith of a person, and how God will judge it. I am not going to tell you that God did not tell those people in the O.T. to kill those infants, because he did, and others before me have already explained in a much better way than I could why that was just of Him. I still, however, believe that God is loving, whether or not you agree with that is up to you. I do want to point out one fault I find in your argument, however... it seems that you are saying that God is pro-abortion because of these instances in the O.T. In saying that, it almost sounds to me as if you are saying that not only is God for abortion, but He is for it 100% of the time, which does not make sense because then no one would exist. Otherwise, if He was only for it some of the time, how would we know when He is and when He isn't, especially if that is not something spelled out in Scripture for us? Or maybe that is your very question to us, right? How do we know what God is saying? I would have to go back to what I said before, and that is to take the entire Bible in context, instead of justifying arguments with one single Scripture reference. That is how cults get started. And I can actually think of other questions you would ask while reading this, so all I can tell you is that the Bible will not make sense to you unless you are 1.) a Christian or 2.) God's revealing things to you. And I hope that He will as you continue to study. Lee Strobel was a journalist who set out to disprove Christianity, only to become a Christian Himself. Anyhow, sorry this was long, but those are my thoughts.

If we are going to look at this from a logical point of view, then GOD IS NOT PRO-ABORTION. Abortion is the killing of a fetus during gestation, not killing of a baby after s/he is born. So as far as your "proof" of pro-abortion, you are completely out of context. If you are "intelligent" as you claim to be, maybe you would do a little more research on science before you stake claims against a God that gave the scientist the brain to think. Without even getting into “Well the bible says…” I could run circles around you. If you want to bring something of validity, talk sense first.

Were I to sculpt a post entirely out of crap, it would not be so full of crap as you are, Karissa. Now according to your definition of logic, I am no doubt suggesting that by association the entire universe is full of crap. I am going to take the initiative and tell you to shut up now. Anyone with a lick of sense should leave this cesspool of foolishness that this post has become.

Well, thank you, Mr. Barry for degrading this debateinto merely a mudslinging contest: I'm sure God is happy with you now. And I thought my own comment was over the top in melodrama and vindictive behavior, but I was wrong...

Ha HA! I was the first one to reply, and now again at number... 34. Well, 33 if you only count one of Graham's double post.

Shelby- You know what? You're right. I do fear many things. I fear the harm that religion causes in many people's lives. I fear the war that religiong starts. I fear the political decisions based on Christianity. For you see, anyone can take verses out of context and use them for their gain. I have a post on that- I think it's the latest one. I suggest you read it. I do not fear death because as Epicurus once said, "Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist. " I had 4 years of deconverting and making this decision. It was not taken lightly and came from actually reading the BIble and praying. The difference is that I pulled my head out of my ass and faced the fear that I could be wrong. But you know what? I'm pretty sure that I am not wrong. I have had to face that fear of hell. However, along with that, maybe you should be scared as well. Maybe you should get some things right with all the religions in the world. For most claim to be the right way just like Jesus did. And they have their versions of hell. So no one can be sure they aren't going to one of those. I don't need to get anything right with god. If he should exist, the burden of proof is with him to reveal himself to me, as he has not. Oh, and one more thing. Maybe you should try being a little more compassionate and a litte less like a bigot when you are talking to someone who isn't a Christian. Don't you want to win souls to Christ? Bethany- that is the craziest rationalization I have ever heard of hell. It's so funny all the different things Christians come up with to justify the existence of something eternal. But, really- I don't think there is anyone that would reject God if they really experienced Him. I mean, think about that. People don't believe in the Christian god because they don't experience him, they don't know about him, or they believe in one of the many thousands of religions other people are brought up in. You can't expect them to discard that because you come in with your hell card. They have their own. And you aren't excepting there's. So what's the difference?

I feel no need to defend myself from claims by some guy with the name "Thoughtless".

Unfortunately, I am once again struck with the imbecility of some of the posters. When someone makes a claim, the proper response is a response to the claim itself, not the maker thereof. I lashed out against Dani, but her post was not nearly as ridiculous as those by Shelby and Hunter. Shelby, it seems, prefers to post that he is a superior debater than Karissa. This, apparently, is evidenced by the fact that he completely misses the point, accuses Karissa of not knowing the definition of abortion, and generally sets himself up as unjustifiably egotistic. An ironic man once said "If you want to bring something of validity, talk sense first." As for Hunter, the fact that he can muster the cognitive ability necessary to force his fingers to hit keys is shocking. To summarize, he posts "Nuh-huh! Shut up." He then follows up this brilliant insight with a jab at Chris for his screen name. Alas, the remarks are truly degenerating. I applaud those posters who discussed the post and did not feel the need to call in to question the morality, intelligence, or intentions of the poster. If you found someone wrong with the post, explain your finding and logic. Allow me to demonstrate. ---- quoted from Hunter with my comments: Were I to sculpt a post entirely out of crap, it would not be so full of crap as you are, Karissa. [Logical fallacy - Ad Hominem and Appeal to Ridicule. This does not discuss the matter at hand but merely shows disdain for the opponent] Now according to your definition of logic, I am no doubt suggesting that by association the entire universe is full of crap. [Logical Fallacy - Begging the question, Burden of Truth, Non Sequitir, Straw Man and Hasty Generalization. Karissa did not explicitly state her definition of logic, nor does her post sufficiently reveal it for such a ridiculous claim.] I am going to take the initiative and tell you to shut up now. Anyone with a lick of sense should leave this cesspool of foolishness that this post has become. [Logical Fallacy - Appeal to Ridicule and Guilt By Assocation. Again, nothing of value to contribute and there is an obvious attempt to convince others to dismiss her.]" ---- As you can see, even a post that doesn't contribute can be dismantled without attacking the poster. So let's summarize. When you CALL someone full of crap, only those that agree with you can enjoy it. When you SHOW someone full of crap, as I have down here, everyone can have a great time. Well, everyone except Hunter and Shelby, at least.