oh goodness, here we go again . . . ask me on aim sometime.

You're kidding me, right? lol

you should ask dad

Oh my flippin' goodness, Sarah, you've got to be kidding me... Well, I will try to make this quick: "For those God foreknew he also predestined" (Romans 8:29a). The next verse then says that those he predestined he called. Elsewhere in the Bible, however, we see instances where we are urged to choose life. Now, I will admit I have not poured my heart and soul over the subject matter, but to me, all this equates to something beyond my understanding... a way in which I have free will to do as I please, yet God, knowing my choice and having a divine plan for me, called me to that choice and predestined me. So, essentially, I believe that God chooses us but we in turn must choose Him. And that's alI I'm going to say about that because I don't know how else to explain it... ha ha... good luck!

why is everyone like "you've got to be kidding me". what is that about? i think your question is not ridiculous... i find other people's posts on "hot" topics far more ridculous. anyway... if you want to know.... i think amy explained it pretty well... and to add something else, i think there is God's perfect will and God's provisional will... i am sure you have heard that before. but yeah. that is what i think. i love you beautiful sarah! we should hang out soon.

I will pose this.....can there be predestination with free will??...I think not therefor since we were given free will by God predestination can't exsist....although I am sure God knows what is going to happen he doesn't plan out what we will do

Actually, my response was due to the fact that I KNOW hers is better, and yet I've hashed out this subject very recently with others who had less pleasant intentions. My top post on my PhuseBox gives part of my thoughts on it. The same thing is as a note on PhuseBox, and a guy named Ben Williams replied with a lot of thoughts and a lot of scripture, so you can look there also. Long story short, I have a very hard time refuting the Doctrine of Election and think it is probably quite factual based on Scripture.

http://mtsu.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=2210266397&id=38400922&index=1 that is the url, hope it helps

http://www.shepherdserve.org/calvinism/calvin_intro.htm This is a site called "The Five Points of Calvinism Considered". It's very good, worth checking out.

Yeah... sorry if my "you've got to be kidding me" comment sounded bad. Mine was also because of the knowledge that your question is not ridiculous but having dealt with so many people who have hashed it (sorry Graham, I stole your phrase) to the point where it almost seems so...

i'm going to have to say i disagree with the whole predestination.. hm... but other than that how goes it?... scientology rocks though... not..

sorry guys... didn't mean to make people mad again... my lips are sealed

^Didnt make me mad, showed me a phrasing/intent error that I felt the need to correct. You're fine. :-)

I found this website that does a pretty good job of explaing how I view it. I know other people will disagree, which is fine, but this is a summary of what I have come to believe on the subject... www.allaboutgod.com/predestination

wow how weird for so many people to be like are you kidding haha... i love how people hate talkin about "stickey theology questions" because they dont know or dont want to accept truth haha. but anyway. obviously you have plenty of help but if youd like my opinion im on aim quite often. be blessed

I would love to see scripture references for "free will" and "perfect/provisional will".

as would I nate, as would I

Here are a few verses that seem to support the notion of "free will" or that it takes human responsibility/action for salvation, along with some to support the idea that God wants everyone to be saved. I fully understand that there are many verses to support predestination/Calvinism as well, and could post those as well, but I am posting what was asked. "For the father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from God" John 16:27 "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead the wrath of God remains on him." John 3:36 "For this is the will of my Father: that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:40 "I assure you: Anyone who believes has eternal life" John 6:47 "Therefore repent and turn back, that your sins may be wiped out..." Acts 3:19 "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved..."Acts 16:31 "If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10:9-10 "In the same way, it is not the will of your Father in heaven that one of these little ones perish" Matthew 18:14 "This is good, and it pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, a man, Jesus Christ, who gave himself-a ransom for all..." 1 Timothy 2: 3-6 "The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance" 2 Peter 3:9

i read graham's post on facebook... and was impressed by the last comment. you should read it. very true.

So is does god choose people or do we have free will? Is he all powerful and all knowing or not? And from what I could see, none of those verses talked about gods "perfect provisional will"...

As stated in my post, they are verses that seem to support "free will."

My answer has already been predetermined ergo there is no reason for me to utter it here. All kidding aside, predestination is a tricky business and I'll discuss it with you on AIM some time.

I am doing incredibly well!!! Hope your doin great!!!

it was pretty good. the little hispanic penguins were AMAZING.