already determined. but it's complicated, so call me, lol.

Yeah, that's a buggering hard question. I agree with Brian, though. Based on scripture, I believe that God already knows precisely who is going where. It gets into semantics on whether He chooses or not, but the fact is, God knows everything, so if He knows something is going to happen a certain way (which He does) then it HAS to happen that way. Many people get caught up in the argument of free will vs. predestination/election, and it's a shame, truly, because if you're Saved, you're Saved. I do believe, though, that in the end, He has made the choice and it takes His intentional revealing of Himself fully for us to make a decision to be saved, and if He fully makes himself known, we WILL make the decision. Ephesians 2:8-9 is the strongest evidence of this. In the NIV, it reads as (the capitalized emphasis is added by me) "For it is by grace that you have been, through faith - AND THIS NOT FROM YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD - not by works, so that none my boast." If you look at the punctuation, the capitalized phrase is referencing the word faith and NOT the word grace, meaning that the faith that saves us is actually a gift from God, thus we dont have the ability to have it apart from His gift. Also, looking at the line "so that no one can boast," if it was purely our choice, it would almost still be a way to bost because we could look at a non-Believer and say "hey, I chose better than he did!" As much as it bruises my ego to think about it, I really do much prefer the idea that we are chosen by God. After all, if we cant do anything to gain it, we wouldnt be able to lose it by doing something either, and God keeps all of His promises, including saying that we cannot be plucked from His hand. On the other hand, I absolutely think that Christ Followers are still supposed to be sharing the Gospel and witnessing to others. For one thing, like you said, there are so many people to talk to, and God DOES USE PEOPLE. Every day, the Lord uses people to accomplish His Will, so we should be out doing it. Then, the simple fact is that Jesus told us all to go and make disciples, and in the Greek it is even stronger, implying that by taking His name, we have ALREADY gone, and should be making disciples in everything that we do. So either way, free-will or Predestination, we are still COMMANDED to witness and share with others as instruments of Christ Jesus for the glory of the Father. This was a really long winded response, I know, and just my own opinion based on Scripture, there are definitely other outlooks, but hopefully this helps.

thank you, graham, i just didn't feel like typing that much, lol

if you really think about it we are all destined to go to hell cause its what we deserve, but there is this God guy who is gives us wayyyy more than we actually deserve. i think that God comes in and saves us from hell if we decide to accept what he is willing to do for us.

Graham probably quoted this verse, but I'm too lazy to read what he wrote, but there is a verse in Ephesians 1 says "those He foreknew He predestined." To me, that says it all. God knows who is going to accept Him and who doesn't, and thus that is what they are destined for. It's one of those things that's really hard to wrap your mind around... like how can you be destined for something and still have a choice? But that's what I believe the Bible teaches. God knows what your choice is going to be, and that you do have a choice, but also I believe God may heavily intervene in someone's life, just as he did for Paul in the Bible, who said in Scriptures that he was chosen by God. So yes, you are chosen, and yes, you have free will and a choice. Is that confusing enough? Ha ha...

Well, my two year's of being Oakland's Chaplain and me being the youngest member on a committee I have been taught in just about every subject there is on Christianity as well as some other religions. Predestination, in my belief, is wrong; there could be no such thing and that we also exist. Predestination is saying that we have no choice in whether we go to heaven or hell, which directly contradicts why God created us: So that He could finally have people who truly love Him and have faith in Him. Heaven or Hell that is it, black and white, in Christianity there is no gray, if there is in a denomination they cannot considered Christian because there is no middle ground when believing in Christ; you either do or you don’t. God does not accept lukewarm. Simply put, you are either saved or you are not but it is your decision. At birth you are born into purity but have sinful nature as it is said in the Bible, therefore if continued without guidance of Christ, hell is your destination, however this is different from predestination at which you have no choice even if you believe in Christ. You are most certainly going to hell as if there is not enough room in heaven, which of course is not true as the Bible states: Christ went before us to make rooms and a dinning place for us in Heaven. At birth its like a tree map at when you are born the map starts and at every decision you make you can either make the right or wrong one that can lead you down the path to heaven or hell. Taking away one’s decision to accept Christ and love Him eliminates Freedom of Choice, which is the basis on which God created us; so that we may choose to have faith in Him and love Him (which is the opposite of angels, they know He exists and fear Him and love Him). So, if a church does not believe God gave man free will then they are denying their own creation and Creator. I guess that is it, good luck on what you believe! Just remember predestination is not the big question, faith in Jesus Christ is the question!

I think that God knows where we are going according to the paths we take in life. HE wouldn't waste a life by "destining" someone to go to Hell. We are HIS children for a reason.

But what scripture is there? I agree that predestination sucks, but it is also EXTREMELY biblical. It is burnt into Ephesians especially. As weird as it is, I think that there is some way that the two can very much coexist, predestination and free will. But saying that a church that agrees with the doctrine of predestination as it is presented in scripture is just as silly as me saying that you arent Christian for not believing in it. While I know that this issue can be a stumbling block, I do not at all think that it is an issue or belief that changes salvation. Whether God did it or we did it, we're still saved if we believe. And I think you mistake something about predestination, which is that only those who are predestined will believe. It's not like "oh, you believe but you're not on my list." If they arent approached by God, they dont believe. After all, the world sees His wisdom as foolishness, so without God's own revelation to them of himself, how could they learn the truth?

But what scripture is there? I agree that predestination sucks, but it is also EXTREMELY biblical. It is burnt into Ephesians especially. As weird as it is, I think that there is some way that the two can very much coexist, predestination and free will. But saying that a church that agrees with the doctrine of predestination as it is presented in scripture is just as silly as me saying that you arent Christian for not believing in it. While I know that this issue can be a stumbling block, I do not at all think that it is an issue or belief that changes salvation. Whether God did it or we did it, we're still saved if we believe. And I think you mistake something about predestination, which is that only those who are predestined will believe. It's not like "oh, you believe but you're not on my list." If they arent approached by God, they dont believe. After all, the world sees His wisdom as foolishness, so without God's own revelation to them of himself, how could they learn the truth?

Sorry for the double post, not sure how that happened

i love you becky i miss you very much and i wanna see you very badly. i love you and i hope you have a great weekend.